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PODCAST: Equipping Australia’s fighting force, Graham Evenden, director integrated weapons and sensors, Thales Australia

For over 100 years, Lithgow in NSW has been a centerpiece to Australia’s sovereign arms manufacturing capabilities  – with the armament factory equipping our military since WWI.

Now under the stewardship of a leading prime, the Thales Lithgow Facility – which started its life as the Lithgow Small Arms Factory producing SMLE III rifles – continues to not only support employment in the regional hub, the products it creates are first class and a testament to Australia’s manufacturing pedigree. 

Join Defence Connect host Phillip Tarrant in conversation with Graham Evenden, director integrated weapons and sensors, land and air systems at Thales Australia, as they discuss the future for the facility, how manufacturing will evolve in the decades and generations ahead, the production of the latest generation of weapons – the F90 –  the need for sovereign manufacturing capabilities and how a focus on quality engineering is central to rifle manufacture.

Enjoy the podcast,

The Defence Connect team

 

 

 

Listen to previous episodes of the Defence Connect podcast:

Episode 116: PODCAST: Breaking into the export market as an SME, Amanda Holt, SYPAQ Systems
Episode 115: PODCAST: Developing a leading-edge drone safety system, Eden Attias, ParaZero
Episode 114: PODCAST: How this Australian Young Engineer of the Year is giving back to defence industry, Stephen Bornstein, Cyborg Dynamics Engineering
Episode 113: PODCAST: Running your own business following a career in defence industry, Troy Huckstepp, Downer Defence Services
Episode 112: PODCAST: How a focus on better leadership can lead to a stronger economy, Riccardo Bosi, Lionheart Australasia
Episode 111: PODCAST: Making the Australian team at the upcoming Invictus Games, Andrew Wilkinson, athlete
Episode 110: Australia’s history in space places nation in prime position
Episode 109: PODCAST: Why space is the future of innovation, business and the human race, Karl Rodrigues, Australian Space Agency
Episode 108: PODCAST: How GaardTech will revolutionise the way that battles are won, Steen Bisgaard, GaardTech
Episode 107: PODCAST: Unpacking the ongoing debate and concern surrounding the F-35 platform, Neale Prescott, Lockheed Martin Australia

Phil Tarrant: Oh, g'day everyone, it's Phil Tarrant here. Thanks for joining us on the Defence Connect Podcast today. It's always a pleasure having you along as we navigate all areas of defence and defence industry.

            Today, we have someone in the studio. It's the first time and thankful that we've had someone from this organisation come in, Thales. For Defence Connect, we always watch with interest how Thales and its many, many different departments in arms is supporting defence initiatives. Also, into the civil sector, and I know moving forward, cyber is a very important place for Thales.

            But a lot of people will be familiar with Thales from some of its Navy work, and also one of the original manufacturers in New South Wales at least, the Lithgow Arms Factory. And today I have someone from the Integrated Weapons and Sensors section coming in to have a chat with us about all things Thales in that domain, Graham Evenden. He's the Director of Integrated Weapons and Sensors, and he sits within Land and Air Systems Division of Thales and there's lots of divisions, so hopefully we can work out how it all fits together.

            Graham, how you going? Thanks for joining us.

Graham Evenden:    Yeah, thanks very much. Nice to be here.

Phil Tarrant: So, just a couple of remarks, as most people will be familiar with Thales' naval work, naval programmes, and also familiar with the work that you do up in Lithgow, and the Lithgow Arms Manufacturing Centre. It's been around for a considerable period of time delivering capabilities into the Australian Army. And it may have some big plans for how it might be able to position itself to capitalise on export potential moving forward as well, both within the, I guess, domestic or the civilian area and also the arms sort of things.

            On the podcast today, Graham, I just really want to get a better understanding for your particular area within Thales, the scope of work that you're doing and just get your views and interpretation on the opportunities around Australian manufacturing into the future. I think if we cover all that off, we'll be doing pretty well.

            So can you just give us a background on Lithgow? It's a very historic manufacturing facility for New South Wales and Australia. It's been around since the early 1900's, but for our listeners that aren't familiar with it, could you give us a quick background on what it's doing and the sort of stuff it's producing today?

Graham Evenden:    Yeah, sure. You're right, it has been around since 1912, actually, and so just over the hundred year mark. It's been in 100% Thales ownership since 2006. A real note as well is that from about 2010, there's been some significant investment from Thales in the facility, both in terms of financial investment, clearly, but also investment in the people and also investment in the technology and the IP that's being created in the facility as well.

            I think most people listening to this may be familiar with a contract that was awarded in 2015, which was for 30,000 assault rifles from Defence. And we're in the process of delivering those rifles right now.

            What it has done, is it has allowed us to really invest in a whole number of areas as a masoned area. Most recently, we're also investing in the number of people working for us. We're up to about 180 people here now across the IWS business. My joy to those in Lithgow. And that actually represents a 35% increase in the number of people working in the business in the last four years. So you can see it's really starting to take shape.

            Another key aspect is not just increasing the number of jobs, which is really important, particularly in that area of New South Wales; unemployment is quite high, and we're a very important - probably the largest employer in Lithgow, and a significant employer in the region.

            Most importantly, though, we're also investing in the skills of our workforce for the future. We've always had an apprenticeship scheme within the factory, and they've typically trained your traditional mechanical-type trades, like fitter and turner and toolmaker, which are important and remain important. But this year, working with skillset with improving the apprenticeship scheme again. And now, they'll move up to a Certificate Four, and we'll start to look at other technical areas as part of the training scheme as well.

            For example, they'll continue to do the mechanical stuff, but they'll also start to look at electronics, they'll start to look at mechatronics, and they'll start to look at maths and other aspects during their training period.

Phil Tarrant: So is it outside the manufacturing you do up in Lithgow...I know you produce the F90 there, the F90MBR, there's quite a lot of civilian stuff - sporting rifles coming out of Lithgow. How prepared is the manufacturing facility there for the next generation of workers, the next generation of contracts coming through? What sort of investment, what sort of infrastructure needs to go in there for Lithgow to remain a major manufacturer of Australian weaponry?

Graham Evenden:    Yes, so Thales has been investing quite significantly, particularly since 2010. And if you get a chance to visit Lithgow, you're more than welcome any time.

Phil Tarrant: I should come up.

Graham Evenden:    Yeah, absolutely. And you will see the difference in the plant and the machinery that is in there now. We're bringing on new machines every year, and those machines require new skills every year as well. So you can see the investment in that side.

            What we're also doing, though, is investing in the future. So while we have a bunch of engineers working on today's part development, taking new products to the market, and you see in the F90MBR, which is absolutely the export variant of the F90, and also in the sporting market as well. We also have people working on the next generation of small arms. And by next generation, I mean five-plus years out. Those products will be absolutely next generation, and of course, they will require investment in manufacturing process, materials, and skills to make them a reality as well. And we've already started that process. The apprenticeship scheme is one of those. We're also bringing on graduate engineers into Lithgow for the first time ever. They're bringing with them skills that are gonna see us get ready for the future.

            So we're in this for the long haul, absolutely. We definitely see a future and we definitely see a future in increased exports on the back of it as well.

Phil Tarrant: Can you give me some visibility about the process for innovation in rifles and small arms? You're talking about five years, ten years ahead.

Phil Tarrant: There's manufacturing work going underway right now in terms of the F90 and the export variant. But how does that innovation happen to look into how rifles, small arms, are going to look sort of into the future? You said it's something you focus on obviously, but how does that work?

Graham Evenden:    It's a really good question, actually. This is where being a small-arms OEM that is part of a defence prime like Thales is really advantageous...

Phil Tarrant: Mm-hmm. (affirmative)

Graham Evenden:    ...because we're allowed to look at what the soldier's requirements will be in the future holistically, and not just from a mechanical weapon perspective. I wouldn't like to say too much more about it...

Phil Tarrant: Mm-hmm. (affirmative)

Graham Evenden:    ...but the message is that we're looking at systems, and being part of Thales certainly enables us to do just that.

Phil Tarrant: And the origination process behind the development of new tech, new weaponry, is it customer-led? So is the Army saying to you, "These are the applications that we require in the modern battlefield moving forward, and therefore, can you develop this?" Or is it the other way, where you identify academic talent or manufacturing talent and bring them into Thales and provide a solution into Army or other services?

Graham Evenden:    It's a mixture of both.

Phil Tarrant: Okay.

Graham Evenden:    At the very beginning, we were calling it the value proposition canvas, we would call it.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    We're trying to identify the current customer user, more importantly, the current soldiers' pains, and what gains they're looking for. And clearly we would ignore the wishes of the customer at our peril there, 'cause it is absolutely critical to have that dialogue with the user in particular. But we've also got to blend that with our knowledge of current and emerging technology as well. So sometimes we need to look beyond that horizon that has typically been created by the user. So we've got to mix those two lines.

            For example, within Lithgow, we've newly created an innovation team. And that's a very diverse group of people, and that diversity comes from not just their age and sex and so on, but also their diversity in experiences. And we kind of show them into a room together and try to remove as many of the rules and regulations that there would normally be expecting, and really let them come up with the ideas for the future.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    We've formalised that now within Lithgow itself, and we're starting to see some of the results from that process. And those results are being fed back into the R & D programme, if you like.

            So, a mixture of the customer is absolutely king, but we need to keep an eye on emerging technologies and, in fact, create some of them, technologies for the future.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm. And I'm quite fortunate in my job that I get to see a fair bit of manufacturing; some of the very, very sophisticated with the most mechanised processes all the way through to some pretty old-school welding of steel. And it pretty much paints the picture of the defence industry. And I haven't visited Lithgow, and I will do, but if I'd arrived on the floor, or speak to your people. How would you articulate the culture of manufacturing within Thales and at Lithgow? If you tried to paint that picture somehow?

Graham Evenden:    Yes. That's a good question.

Phil Tarrant: There's a bit of a tough one, because everyone sees it a bit different. Yeah.

Graham Evenden:    That's a tough one, but interestingly, we actually went through this exercise ourselves...

Phil Tarrant: Okay.

Graham Evenden:    ...over eighteen months ago, and we were working on our Vision Statement and our Mission, and tried to come up with something that meant something to everyone in the factory.

Phil Tarrant: Yeah.

Graham Evenden:    And delivering precision is the mantra, the feeling of that if you like...

Phil Tarrant: Okay.

Graham Evenden:    And it's interesting, of course, 'cause precision can mean many things, and it's Precision In Manufacturing, and every single person in that factory who the vast majority have some link to either a previous generation that has worked there...

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    ...and, therefore, some link to World War I, World War II, and absolutely take their job seriously. They know that whatever they manufacture is going to be carried by a soldier - an Australian soldier - whose life is gonna be in danger. And they want to make sure that thing is gonna work.

            So Precision In Manufacturing. But also, of course, the spinoff is precision in the firing of the weapon as well, as an accurate system that we built.

            Culture, even in my time, and I've been with the business eight years now, is changing, moving towards that high-performance culture.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    And momentum is going now, and the workforce is heading in that direction by themselves. And they're ready now for new technologies to come online, and already we've introduced some of those technologies into the manufacturing area as well as the design area.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm. It's interesting because you talk about this pedigree, or legacy, of Lithgow from 1912, so it's seen a number of World Wars, and Australian soldiers, and people in the military have been deployed many, many times over many decades in a lot of the different conflicts. But you draw this parallel between the people who are on the floor manufacturing these arms actually identify with the end-usage of it. That's a big part of the core, is it, do they...

Graham Evenden:    Absolutely. That's central to the culture there...

Phil Tarrant: Mm-hmm. (affirmative)

Graham Evenden:    ...and it's something that we dearly hang on to and want to maintain and foster...

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    ...actually. So when the daily meetings are going on around the factory, if everyone's involved, and knows it at various levels, then the user is always front-and-center on the discussion. So if there's an issue, ultimately, we need to understand: will the issue have an impact on the user, and if the answer is yes, then that's clearly unacceptable, and then it's fixing and then we move on with life.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    We also are fortunate that we do have a number of visits from Army. Clearly, we have some VIP visitors from the Acquisition area. But we're also lucky we get users to visit, we also get maintainers to visit in uniform, and that's absolutely important for us. We want to maintain that link.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm. And what's your view of Australian manufacturing? Depending what media route or who you listen to, they're gonna paint a picture of Australian manufacturing capabilities in the doldrums, closure of car plants, manufacturing is now done offshore? I know I've had some good conversations with people who see the world very differently, and paint a picture of manufacturing, which isn't the actual mechanical doing of building something, it's the whole process from design, conceptualization all the way through to the export market. But Thales and, I guess, the pedigree of 100-plus years manufacturing for the Army...are you confident about Australia's ability to manufacture into the future, or do you think competitive forces will potentially take all this stuff offshore?

Graham Evenden:    No, I'm very optimistic and confident in the future of manufacturing in Australia, certainly through my optic, from within the IWS business. Brother in that as well. I think what's important is...Lithgow was previously a build-to-print organisation, a government-owned build-to-print organisation, and therefore, they're reliant purely on defence contracts to maintain a workforce...

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    ...maintain that capability. That's no longer the case, and since Thales' ownership, we have now vertically integrated into a true small-arms OEM. So now we design our own products. We qualify our own products. We manufacture those products. We sustain those products.

            We also, as a consequence, understand what manufacturing processes have got to come in to maintain competitiveness into the future. And it isn't about necessarily reducing the cost to manufacture something, it's more about creating value in the product, such that it can stand on its own two feet around the world. It doesn't have to be the cheapest product to do that, it has to be the best value product to do that.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    And I think the future, a successful future in manufacturing for Lithgow in particular, but Thales and other companies as well, is to ensure that they invest in IP and innovation, to create products and services that add on value to the user.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm. And what's your feel of the new generation of potential Lithgow team members, manufacturing in general...it's hard to attract good apprentices these days. It feels like every single kid that finishes school wants to go to university, and enter that particular workforce, whereas opportunities across trades has never been better in Australia. But the challenge is attracting people in these jobs. What's Thales doing to make sure you get the absolute best apprentices in the market to continue what's required for the end user, and as you painted the picture, it's a pretty important customer whose getting your kit?

Graham Evenden:    Absolutely. We're very fortunate when recruiting apprentices in Lithgow. It's perhaps easier than other parts of the country. The demand for apprenticeships is greater than the supply of apprenticeships, it's as simple as...

Phil Tarrant: That's really...

Graham Evenden:    ...as simple as that...

Phil Tarrant: ...that's great.

Graham Evenden:    ...absolutely, we...

Phil Tarrant: Yeah.

Graham Evenden:    ...so we currently have, I think it's 10 apprentices on at the moment, with a plan to grow that up to 20 over the next four years. For every apprentice vacancy we have, we have scores of applicants for that job.

Phil Tarrant: Local kids, or all over the place?

Graham Evenden:    Absolutely, local. Lithgow and the neighbouring towns, so you know, Bathurst, back down towards the Blue Mountains. But mostly from Lithgow.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    And, God, we've got some really, really good young talent in our apprentices at the moment, and have had for a number of years. That's how we're able to bring these apprentices on, and not just expose them to that traditional apprenticeship scheme, which is good. But they've got the skills, and they've got the drive, and they've got the energy, and they've got the determination to go that extra step that we've asked them to do now, for the Mechatronics software, et cetera, et cetera.

            So we're very fortunate. And even now, bringing on graduates into Lithgow as well, for the first time ever, we've done that this year.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    A mechanical engineer and a Mechatronics engineer have joined the team just a few weeks ago. And they're from the top 3% in the country, and we've attracted them to the business. And the reason we've attracted them is because they see the future. And they also see the change that we're making in the business to be ready for the future.

Phil Tarrant: I guess what you're talking about there is automation in manufacturing, so how do you balance utilising some of the great tech coming in right now to support manufacturing capabilities blended with the skills and sophistication of the human, who's integral still to the manufacturing process? How do you go through that balance?

Graham Evenden:    It's a good question. Lithgow is well-known within Thales globally. We were a very early adopter of LEAN manufacturing.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    And it's relatively mature now, and we're reaping the benefits from that. The next overlay, which is gonna really make a difference as well, is the automation aspects, as you say. We're really taking our first step on that journey, literally this year.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    So we're trying to understand where best to invest in automation to get the quickest return. We're doing that for the today and for the medium term, but we're also looking at the next generation of manufacturing as well, whether that be additive LEAN manufacturing, whether it be better use of polymers and coatings, and you know, all of these things are in the mix. So yeah, it seems to be working so far, so...

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    ...fingers crossed.

Phil Tarrant: Yeah, I know it's something at the top of mind with most defence primes, or at least all defence primes who work within the manufacturing space, and that picture you painted before, you have the manufacturing you do is very different than the sort of manufacturing that's gonna happen down in Osborne building submarines and ships, but it comes down to the talent of the Australian workforce and our ability...a collective...agenda, I guess to make sure we're preparing all these major defence programmes coming online, and whether it's new stuff like frigates and subs, or it's long-term stuff like the provision of arms, how do we make sure that we are creating a defence industry which can attract the best talent, and make sure we get the best people into it? Because it is a national endeavour. And I know Thales is doing some great work that regards, as well as some other primes. Can you run us through any of those, particular programmes?

Graham Evenden:    For me, one of the key reasons we can attract good talent into Thales, and Lithgow in particular, is because we attract them by giving them a vision of the future. Yup, so they'll come out of university, they'll have an insight as to what the next generation's meant to be looking like, and arrive at a factory that is still using C & C machines and cutting and grinding and that type of activity. Which is important, right? And we're good at that. But they help us on the journey to the next generation. You know, so they have a real value-added role to play in us transforming the business for the future.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm. It's interesting. And we've spoken a lot about the work you're doing up in Lithgow, but I know your area, integrated weapons and sensors is a lot more than that. We've touched briefly on the incubation of new ideas and how you can support your customers by creating new ways to do things. What other work sort of falls within your domain?

Graham Evenden:    Within Lithgow, we also conduct maintenance, repair, and overhaul services for defence on third-party integrated weapons systems as well. So that's a relatively long-term contract. We also conduct, again, services: maintenance, repair services, on Thales and third-party optronic devices, so image intensifiers, thermalizers, and other laser devices. And they can be weapon-borne or vehicle-borne optronics. We actually own extensive optronics laboratories and workshops in our [inaudible 00:21:24] facility. We can actually manufacture high-tech products there already. We have an engineering team and a service team permanently based in there. And the third part of the business is we provide technical services to defence where it could be designing a solution for a specific problem...

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    ...or helping them source a solution to a problem by going to market for them, and running competition, and making recommendations on the best solution in their weapons space.

Phil Tarrant: And, again, a collective opportunity for Australia is to shift us from being primarily a defence importer to creating our own products. And what you've explained is essentially sovereign capability around the manufacture of small arms, which is great. What role do you see Lithgow and your department within Thales playing on the export side? Is there big export opportunities for...I know you have the F90 MBR, which is the export variant. How you going about getting outside of Australia into other customers?

Graham Evenden:    So there's a number of programmes that are live at the moment for export opportunities for the F90 and the F90MBR. As you say, that was a new product to market last year that was designed specifically for the export market. I wouldn't want to say what those programmes are, but I'll say that a number of them are live and at various stages of maturation at the moment.

            As part of our growth, we also realise that we need to diversify and reduce reliance on defence contracts because they can be very cyclical. And we want to try and avoid that as much as possible. So we made that decision in 2014 to move to the sporting market as well, and our core competencies are pretty much the same. We took our first product to market in late 2014, early 2015, and now we're exporting to ten different countries around the world...

Phil Tarrant: Okay.

Graham Evenden:    ...as of last year. And there are more countries coming online as well. And we do that under the brand of Lithgow Arms, and if there's any Australian shooters listening to this, then I'm sure they'll be very familiar with that brand and the products that are in there.

Phil Tarrant: That's good. And I'm quite intrigued how...'cause I do detect a twang to your accent, which...so Australia is not your home; I'd say Scotland, obviously. But what's the back story? How did you end up doing what you do here with Thales?

Graham Evenden:    Yeah.

Phil Tarrant: You're an engineer by trade?

Graham Evenden:    I'm not. I'm a soldier by profession.

Phil Tarrant: Okay.

Graham Evenden:    So I was in the British Army for over 25 years.

Phil Tarrant: Okay.

Graham Evenden:    And I ended up working in the British defence industry, the European defence industry, shall we say.

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    And I was working in the small-arms, one of the major European small-arms companies when I first left the Army. And after that, I was consulting for various governments on soldier modernization activities, the British government, Norwegian government, and a couple of others. I found myself consulting for Thales in Australia in 2009, and they offered me a job. My wife said, "That's a good idea, let's give that a go."

Phil Tarrant: How you finding, is it okay?

Graham Evenden:    Oh, we love it. Fantastic...

Phil Tarrant: It's a great place, is it?

Graham Evenden:    Yeah we're here for...

Phil Tarrant: It's a cracking day today, it is, it's like...

Graham Evenden:    Today...every time I drive over the Harbour Bridge, we still love to pinch ourselves, say...how did this happen?

Phil Tarrant: And this whole process of soldier modernization, it's perpetual. You never stop doing it. You'll always be thinking about the next thing. Talking about who the end customer is of, we're talking about the F90 now, the fact that guys and girls are relying on this kit in the field, so I guess your pedigree as a soldier yourself, you speak from experience in that regard. You know what it's like to have the right gear.

Graham Evenden:    Absolutely. It's critical. There is no second-best. It's just got to be absolutely reliable all of the time. And no matter what the conditions are. Like the soldiers, their weapons will be exposed to extremes of climate and other difficult, challenging scenarios. And it has got to be up to the job. It's as simple as that. And we do it. And the F90 - and I would say this now, but the F90 is absolutely one of the most reliable firearms in the world.

Phil Tarrant: Yeah.

Graham Evenden:    And the most accurate at the same time.

Phil Tarrant: Well, I know a lot of soldiers that would echo your sentiments there. And I guess on that basis, how do you go about...what's the process for obtaining field feedback so you can continually improve, or tweak, or you know, solve any potential problems, or better effect them? Is that part organic, or does that require a procedural base process?

Graham Evenden:    As reasonably I talk, to be honest with you. Cast G is often a conduit to that, and we get good feedback on occasions. I was really pleased to see that, and this was in the media of course, that the F90 or EF80A as it would be known within defence, had completed its first operational tour with one of the battalions, and with glowing results as well. Fantastic. Often, the best feedback you get from a soldier on weapons, or their boots, or their gloves, is no feedback...

Phil Tarrant: No feedback at all. I'm sure soldiers are happy to say if they don't think something's working very well.

Graham Evenden:    Absolutely.

Phil Tarrant: Yeah, so...no news is often good news.

Graham Evenden:    Absolutely.

Phil Tarrant: Well, that's great. Graham, I've enjoyed chatting to you. We could probably expand the chat out. We've run out of time around the modernization within the Army and soldiers in general. It sounds like you've done quite a lot of consulting on that basis, so it's something which needs to be maintained constantly.

            But I think the real opportunity here, that dovetails in with a lot of the conversations we have been having on defence Connect recently around export potential, and I know the government is firmly behind it. I know the Export Sales Catalog's just come out last week or the week before.

Graham Evenden:    Yeah.

Phil Tarrant: Which Thales is part of. So it's good to see that, as well as the primes themselves doing the activities and the energy to try and export, that government's behind them as well to try and promote abroad as well, and make sure that Australian companies and Australian capabilities is connecting with people who might be potential customers for this gear. It's great that Thales has this story of the arms factory from 1912 to today, and I'm sure that's gonna be a story that continues. And I'll make sure I get out there and check it out, and have a look.

Graham Evenden:    You're very welcome there, as I say. You'll meet a workforce that's very proud of what they do, and...

Phil Tarrant: Hmm.

Graham Evenden:    92% of our products are made in Australia. We have to offshore a couple of components only, but it's very much an Australian product, and we're proud to export it out of Australia.

Phil Tarrant: That's great. Now Graham, appreciate your time and thanks for coming in.

Graham Evenden:    Thank you.

Phil Tarrant: Remember to check out defenceconnect.com.au. If you're not subscribing to our daily morning market intelligence, so you’re the first to know what's happening in defence and defence industry.

            Defenceconnect.com.au/subscribe

            If you like social media, and that's where you get your info, search defenceconnect and you'll track us down. Also, any questions for myself and this podcast, or Graham, and I'll be happy to pass them on. You can email the team editor at defenceconnect.com.au.

            We'll be back again next time. Until then, bye bye.

 

 

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